Poll

Should kiddie rapists face the death penalty?

yes
12 (70.6%)
no
5 (29.4%)
don't know
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: US high court mulls death for child rape  (Read 1966 times)

Offline Lois

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,425
  • Merits 365
US high court mulls death for child rape
« on: May 07, 2008, 11:05:01 PM »
US high court mulls death for child rape

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080416/pl_afp/uscourtjusticerapechildrenexecution

Wed Apr 16, 5:22 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Supreme Court on Wednesday heard arguments on whether the rape of a child is punishable by death, a penalty which for the past 30 years has only been handed down on murder cases.

The case is an appeal by lawyers for Patrick Kennedy, 43, a Louisiana man sentenced to death in 2003 for raping his girlfriend's eight-year old daughter.

Prosecutors in a handful of states have argued in favor of the death penalty when children are raped.

Texas solicitor general, Ted Cruz, told the justices there is "unique and irreparable harm caused by violent child rape," and states should be free to impose the severest possible punishment.

"I would fully expect, in time, some states would act to establish capital punishment and others would not. That's precisely how the laboratories of democracy should operate," Cruz said.

Since the death penalty was reinstated in the United States in 1976, it has only been carried out for crimes of murder.

In 1977 the Supreme Court overturned the death sentence of a rapist, saying the punishment for the crime was excessive and fell under the constitution's proscription of "cruel and unusual" punishment.

But in May, the Louisiana state supreme court endorsed Kennedy's sentence, saying the 1977 ruling applied to the rape of an adult and not of a child. Kennedy's lawyers then appealed to the US high court.

The case comes as laws and punishments for sexual abuse of children have been toughened, with often the minimum jail term set at 25 years.

Five states have set the death penalty as the maximum for the crime, although it has rarely been handed down: only one other rapist has been sentenced to death, also in Louisiana last month -- a man convicted of abusing a neighbor's daughter several times in 2004.

A decision in the case is expected by July.
So much oppression in our culture is based on shame about sex: the oppression of women, of cultural minorities, oppression in the name of the (presumably asexual) family, oppression of sexual minorities. We are all oppressed. We have all been taught, one way or another, that our desires, our bodies, our sexualities, are shameful. What better way to defeat oppression than to get together in communities and celebrate the wonders of sex?
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

Offline Lois

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,425
  • Merits 365
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2008, 11:10:24 PM »
In cases where the child's life is destroyed I believe the rape of a child is every bit as heinous as murder.

My niece was repeatedly abused by both my sister and brother-in-law, as well as raped by my brother-in-law, and whored out for drug money.  She now no longer knows fantasy from reality, and is so mentally damaged she will never have a normal life or be able to support herself.

Death penalty?  YES

But I would go further and include extreme child abuse as a capital crime as well.  The test should be "destruction of life".  When a child is destroyed mentally it is the same as murder.
So much oppression in our culture is based on shame about sex: the oppression of women, of cultural minorities, oppression in the name of the (presumably asexual) family, oppression of sexual minorities. We are all oppressed. We have all been taught, one way or another, that our desires, our bodies, our sexualities, are shameful. What better way to defeat oppression than to get together in communities and celebrate the wonders of sex?
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

Offline MrPessimist

  • Undergrad
  • ******
  • Posts: 519
  • Merits 17
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2008, 06:39:02 PM »
I said no, but hear me out. I'm not saying they don't diserve it, because they do- definitely. However by applying the death penalty to child rapists you are taking away any reason the rapist had for keeping the victim alive. Now killing makes things more convenient.

"I'm going to get executed either way, may as well make it harder for them to find me."

You follow?

Yeah it fucks the kids up, but in theory they can eventually lead a normal life. I said no because of this chance that one day the mental damage could be fixed, but we've never brought anyone back from the dead.
Just another evil genius bent on world domination, nothing to see here.

Offline zany2some2

  • Junior
  • ****
  • Posts: 160
  • Merits 28
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2008, 06:48:08 PM »
I understand both positions.  Mr. Pessimist stated his well.

However, ultimately I agree with Emily and the gauge should be destruction of life.  I can't even imagine the hell the child will live FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIFE.  We don't make punishments less in hopes of saving lives, we make the punishments harsh in hopes of preventing the crime to begin with.
Sticks and stones may break my bones
but whips and chains excite me!

Offline misaimer
  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • Merits 2
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 07:03:27 PM »
I said no, but hear me out. I'm not saying they don't diserve it, because they do- definitely. However by applying the death penalty to child rapists you are taking away any reason the rapist had for keeping the victim alive. Now killing makes things more convenient.

"I'm going to get executed either way, may as well make it harder for them to find me."

You follow?

Yeah it fucks the kids up, but in theory they can eventually lead a normal life. I said no because of this chance that one day the mental damage could be fixed, but we've never brought anyone back from the dead.

Good point, plus lets not forget that alot of children are raped by adults they know and care about. So they might be afraid to come forward if telling might result in the person being killed.

It's simply a matter of ideals vs. being pragmatic. Ideally, all rapists (in full control of their mental abilities) deserve death. But being pragmatic, that would only make things worse in some regards.

Offline Brek

  • Graduate
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Merits 42
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2008, 01:21:33 PM »
One of the many reasons to oppose the death penalty is that, aside from not being an effective deterrent, it actually functions to escalate the scale and brutality of crimes. If you know that you are going to die if your victim reports you, you are far more likely to kill them, to kill police coming after you, etc. Putting that aside, I'm categorically against the death penalty. No matter the crime someone committed, it is barbaric to sink to their level.

Quote
However, ultimately I agree with Emily and the gauge should be destruction of life.  I can't even imagine the hell the child will live FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIFE.

By that criterion, rapists could get out in a few years. It is possible for someone to, with extensive counseling and support, overcome the trauma of rape or abuse within a pretty short time period. It also means that murder leads to the death penalty while theft can never lead to jail. The maxim of basically doing back to the criminal what the victim did to him is not only sheer revenge in legal cloaking and is thus grossly barbaric, it's also idiotic. It prevents us from making a proper scale of response wherein a crime has enough deterrent that one doesn't want to do it. Should someone be let out when their victim gets better? No. That's clearly ridiculous.

Offline Lois

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,425
  • Merits 365
Death Penalty for Child Rape Barred by Top U.S. Court
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 06:27:01 PM »
Death Penalty for Child Rape Barred by Top U.S. Court (Update4)

By Greg Stohr

 June 25 (Bloomberg) -- A divided U.S. Supreme Court barred the death penalty for the crime of child rape, saying a Louisiana man's execution would violate the constitutional ban on ``cruel and unusual punishment.''

The justices, voting 5-4, spared Patrick Kennedy from becoming the first person since 1964 to be executed in the U.S. for a crime other than murder. Kennedy was convicted of raping his 8-year-old stepdaughter.

The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child,'' Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the court.

The ruling extends a line of Supreme Court cases that have restricted the circumstances in which the death penalty can be applied. It also underscores Kennedy's significance as the court's deciding vote on many social issues.

The court divided along ideological lines. Justices Stephen Breyer, John Paul Stevens, David Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg joined the majority. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas dissented.

The ruling drew criticism from both major-party presidential candidates. Illinois Senator Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee, faulted the court for issuing a ``blanket prohibition'' on the death penalty for child rape.

``The rape of a small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime, and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable, that does not violate our Constitution,'' Obama said at a press conference in Chicago.

McCain Criticism

Arizona Senator John McCain, the presumed Republican presidential nominee, in a statement condemned the majority for ``an assault on law enforcement's efforts to punish these heinous felons for the most despicable crime.''

Earlier this month, McCain said a 5-4 decision giving suspected terrorists held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, access to federal courts is ``one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.''

Louisiana was one of five states that explicitly permit execution of people convicted of raping a child. Patrick Kennedy, 44, and another Louisiana man were the only people in the nation on death row for a non-homicide crime.

The last U.S. execution for rape was in 1964, when Missouri put Ronald Wolfe to death. The last for any non-homicide crime took place later that same year, when Alabama executed convicted robber James Coburn.

The Supreme Court in 1977 said the Constitution barred execution for the rape of a 16-year-old. That ruling didn't address attacks on younger children.

`National Consensus'

The Supreme Court barred executions of retarded people in 2002, then took the same step in 2005 for killers who were under age 18 at the time of the crime. In each of those cases, the majority said a ``national consensus'' had emerged against those executions, noting that a number of states had barred them in recent years.

With child rape, the trend had been in the opposite direction. Three states -- Oklahoma, South Carolina and Texas -- have adopted capital punishment for child rape in the last two years, and Montana did so in 1997.

Justice Kennedy said those states weren't enough to constitute a trend favoring the death penalty for child rape. He said the evidence ``shows divided opinion but, on balance, an opinion against it.''

`Grave' Harms

In dissent, Alito said child rape imposed ``grave'' harms on children and society at large.

``It is the judgment of the Louisiana lawmakers and those in an increasing number of other states that these harms justify the death penalty,'' Alito wrote. ``The court provides no cogent explanation why this legislative judgment should be overridden.''

Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, a Republican, called the ruling ``an affront to the people of Louisiana and the jury's unanimous decision in this case.''

In upholding the death sentence, the Louisiana Supreme Court pointed to state and federal laws that permit the death penalty for such crimes as treason, espionage, air piracy and drug trafficking.

Justice Kennedy said the high court wasn't deciding whether the death penalty was constitutional for those crimes, restricting the ruling to cases of ``crimes against individuals.'' In that type of case, he said, the death penalty is appropriate only when the victim was killed.

Wrongful Conviction Risk

The majority opinion said execution is especially problematic in the child rape context because of the high risk of wrongful conviction. Patrick Kennedy's stepdaughter originally said she had been raped by two teenaged boys from the neighborhood. Prosecutors eventually concluded that Kennedy had been the perpetrator and had told her to lie.

Justice Kennedy also questioned whether the death penalty would be in the best interests of victims, noting that the victim in the Louisiana case had to testify about the attack twice. He said capital punishment ``forces a moral choice on the child, who is not of mature age to make that choice.''

Kennedy also said the possibility of execution ``may remove a strong incentive for the rapist not to kill the victim.''

The case is Kennedy v. Louisiana, 07-343.
So much oppression in our culture is based on shame about sex: the oppression of women, of cultural minorities, oppression in the name of the (presumably asexual) family, oppression of sexual minorities. We are all oppressed. We have all been taught, one way or another, that our desires, our bodies, our sexualities, are shameful. What better way to defeat oppression than to get together in communities and celebrate the wonders of sex?
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

Offline RopeFiend

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,512
  • Merits 236
  • only a Dean for tech help
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 06:52:36 PM »
Personally, I think the honorable Judge Kennedy has his head up his butt.

Molesting an 8-year old gets MUCH MORE social outrage than a murder does.  It's such a heinous crime that even murderers don't like pedos.  The guy won't last long in prison... instead of a humane death sentence, he'll probably die with a broom handle rammed up his ass about 2 feet.


Offline EevilJ

  • Undergrad
  • ******
  • Posts: 972
  • Merits 65
  • Life is full of suprises.
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 09:00:06 PM »
I'm about to get really unpopular on a volatile subject. Hardly new.

I agree with the majority of the supreme court on this one. Our justice system shouldn't be based soley on revenge or even MOSTLY on revenge. I don't agree with the death penalty. Period. Mainly because the administration of it has been proven time and time again to be uneven; doled out to the poor and the unpopular and the uneducated while people with money and connections will NEVER be killed for the same crime. NEVER. In most cases, we never even try them for crimes because we know our prosecutors are no match for... well... real lawyers. They are great at getting the slow moving targets, but the hard ones? Good luck. Until it's given out to assholes who have money and commit heinous crimes, I don't see how you can ever call it justice. That has NEVER happened. Nor will it.

My distaste for government sanctionned killing of indigent criminals and the equally common government sanctionned release of well-heeled ones aside, the death penalty does exist and it's going nowhere soon. Fine. Let's go to the crime at hand then. If a person rapes a child, that child may be scarred for life and never function as a human again. He or she may never be able to have a normal relationship. He or she may end up in permanent care. (Now comes the most unpopular part) Or that victim may in fact respond to counselling and lead a normal life.

Yes. It could happen. Every victim of abuse isn't a babbling vegetable. In fact, there's no proof that most victims aren't scarred for life and afraid of their shadows and only useful as examples of the evils of heinous crime. Survivors of violent crime- children included- have a chance of recovering. I know that's unpopular because we hate child rapists viscerally, but you know it's true. The only vicims of violent crime that have absolutely no chance of recovery are the victims of murder. And the communities that allow the death penalty (45 states I believe) already give the death penalty to those who commit murder. The key differenc here is that the murder victim has a 0% chance of recovery. 0%. Not 90% or 10% or even 5%. 0%.

That means the only reason we really want the death penalty fopr child rapists is we (justly) hate them. Fine. Can we give it to executives of huge companies that falsify figures so they can jack up prices on the elderly and make them homeless or freeze to death during the winter or die of heat exhaustion in the summer. That happen more often by far than child rape. Or maybe we can give it to politicians who manipulate the truth through "news outlets" that are actually designed only to confuse people through false propaganda and send 1,000's of young men to their death in a relatively short period of time. Or "scientists" who are actually paid by companies to furnish "proof" that seciond hand smoke doesn't cause cancer, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths (children included)- proof they always knew was false.

I agree this bastard will probably get beaten, raped and maimed in prison for at least the first 4 or so years. Then he'll spend the rest of his life in there being afraid of anything that moves. Fine by me. But his victim is alive. I'm tired of us adding things to the list of stuff it's okay to kill people over. If you want a kiddie rapist dead, make some money and murder him. You'll probably get off.

Sorry. Gallows humour there. I'm not directing this at anyone on this board. It's just my opinion.

Offline RopeFiend

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,512
  • Merits 236
  • only a Dean for tech help
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 10:22:27 PM »
I'm about to get really unpopular on a volatile subject. Hardly new.

 >:D  We're not the Evil Empire... differing opinions are WELCOME and ENCOURAGED on this forum!

Quote
That means the only reason we really want the death penalty fopr child rapists is we (justly) hate them. Fine. Can we give it to executives of huge companies that falsify figures so they can jack up prices on the elderly and make them homeless or freeze to death during the winter or die of heat exhaustion in the summer. That happen more often by far than child rape. Or maybe we can give it to politicians who manipulate the truth through "news outlets" that are actually designed only to confuse people through false propaganda and send 1,000's of young men to their death in a relatively short period of time...<snip>

Oooo, can we start with McCain first?  Pretty please?  I'm sure he indirectly killed a SHITLOAD of older people when he helped Charlie Keating wipe out the Savings & Loans and stole all of their retirement funds... and a more deserving pair for the death sentence would be hard to find.  I hate 'em both with a passion.

I finally stopped by The Dipshit's forum this afternoon, and I see he has a huge news header for McCain.  Why am I not surprised??  <need a HEAD UP THE ASS smiley here>

Offline Lois

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,425
  • Merits 365
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 10:41:03 PM »


How are these?

 
So much oppression in our culture is based on shame about sex: the oppression of women, of cultural minorities, oppression in the name of the (presumably asexual) family, oppression of sexual minorities. We are all oppressed. We have all been taught, one way or another, that our desires, our bodies, our sexualities, are shameful. What better way to defeat oppression than to get together in communities and celebrate the wonders of sex?
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

Offline EevilJ

  • Undergrad
  • ******
  • Posts: 972
  • Merits 65
  • Life is full of suprises.
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2008, 12:07:05 AM »
I finally stopped by The Dipshit's forum this afternoon, and I see he has a huge news header for McCain.  Why am I not surprised??  <need a HEAD UP THE ASS smiley here>

Yeah, I go to almost all the forums now almost every day- if for no other reason than to see what neat new porn they might have- and I was actually jarred by that. I wonder how McCain would feel about the fact that he is, essentially, being endorsed by a rape site. I doubt he'd be comfortable with it. It's one thing to have individuals on a site endorse or condemn you, but to have a big link to a candidate on the front page...? That's a bit much.

I'm sure somewhere in the neo-con mind there is some equivalent that is happening on every other site on Earth in the vast anti-Christian conspiracy that all of us non-cons belong to. I've never seen a group of people come up with more excuses as to why they are perfectly justified to lie, cheat and abandon their own beliefs in the name of saving their own beliefs.

Okay... I'll quit bagging on them. Sorry.

Offline Lois

  • Dean
  • Masters Degree
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,425
  • Merits 365
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2008, 12:34:43 AM »
Maybe we should report it to the McCain campaign?  Hey, the rapists are for McCain!  LOL!  :emot_rotf.gif:
So much oppression in our culture is based on shame about sex: the oppression of women, of cultural minorities, oppression in the name of the (presumably asexual) family, oppression of sexual minorities. We are all oppressed. We have all been taught, one way or another, that our desires, our bodies, our sexualities, are shameful. What better way to defeat oppression than to get together in communities and celebrate the wonders of sex?
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities

Offline Brek

  • Graduate
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Merits 42
Re: US high court mulls death for child rape
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2008, 11:27:38 AM »
I don't know if it'd be rude to add, but, umm, Vietnamese protecting their country? I mean, of course the S&L thing was monstrous on a giant level, but why can't we talk about the actual murder?

I agree 100% with Evil. We as a society should not allow our government the right to determine if it wants to take our lives.