Author Topic: How do you structure/plan a story?  (Read 497 times)

Offline Sander

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How do you structure/plan a story?
« on: July 11, 2020, 12:41:25 PM »
I am a bit interested in how you all come to build your stories. I got the feeling that we all have very different paths and approaches. In this case I will have to explain the context a bit. The scenario in question is part of a story and in it one of the objectives is that the wife will be convicted of murder of another woman. My thoughts is that this is not planned, but something that happens due to something that happens in the scene. So a man is added to facilitate and give a few more options later on in the story that for the moment is not relevant. I rarely write something just taking it where it leads me. Instead I set up some parameters that needs to be met during said story. Setting up too many cripples me in my writing so for me it essential to keep them limited to allow me the freedom to explore how things could have happened. So for this I might go about like this to start with.

Wife kills woman in Sauna with help of man

Option 1: who has sex?
   man/woman or wife have sex
   woman/wife have sex
   all three have sex

This obviously does not limit me very much, all it really does is declares it is related to sex.

Option 2: if rape, what happens when third party enters?
   rape interrupted
   rape extended
   rape changes victim

Now this question is more important. Ah yes to this leads the story in on a path. My thinking here is this. What is most likely to result in death, consensual sex or rape? Both are at this point still an option, but my twisted mind tells me to go with the rape option. This will later on give me the opportunity to explorer many options in regards to who killed and who raped. Both did all? They did one thing each? And so on.

Option 3: what motivates the man?
   Wife kills woman, man is motivated to stay silent due to financial situation.
   Wife kills woman, man is motivated to join in due to financial situation.
   Man helps to kill woman to get revenge due to financial situation.
   Man gets caught up in the situation and can not control himself.

This question I asked to decide what will happen to the man after it has happened. I opted to keep this in here to further show how I think when I construct the scenario that will play out.

Once I have answered these basic questions I have a set of parameters that are still pretty loose. And I have the freedom to write where ever I feel the story takes me. Yet I have not gone in to such a depth that it cripples me.

Now to what I am curious about. How would you go about doing something like this? Would you just start writing without any limitations and see where it took you? Are more or less strict with an idea you have? Would it be different if it was stand alone story or a chapter in something longer?

These questions popped up after I watched a few Youtube videos recently that talked about flaws in films and what could have been done differently in order to make them more interesting/better. Added to that I just had a HD crash and I lost part of a story I had written. And I suddenly felt the freedom to rewrite it completely. After that I managed to save the documents from the crash, but the new ideas I had gotten thinking about it made me rewrite it anyways as I felt that the way I had written it limited me in ways I did not like.

This is a bit lengthy, I know. But if you have the time. Please leave a reply I you can, it would be most appreciated.

Sander

Offline Grumpy

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2020, 01:36:55 PM »
I mean there's a billion different ways to bake a cake, and they all end up as cake in the end...

With that said, I would consider characters more than I would story. I know that my stories are often heavily reliant on an interesting premise, and I also know that's why they aren't interesting in the long run. So in your case, consider what would make the wife kill - what's so important to her that she'll kill to protect it, or what makes her so mad that she loses control? Then go from there.

So, to bring that hypothetical further: Let's say the wife will kill to protect her image as a politician. Okay, what will tarnish that image? Her husband having an affair being made public could surely do it, and now the woman he had an affair with is blackmailing her with that. There's your motive. Now take another step in that equation: What would make the woman blackmail the husband? Is she extremely poor? Maybe she is madly in love with the husband and want to get some of that politician cash before she breaks them apart... In other words, make interesting, strong, opinionated characters, and shit will happen. Why did the husband cheat in the first place? etc.

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2020, 01:39:21 PM »
Sander,

In every endeavor there will always be critics. You have to write the way you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable planning every detail, do that. I Myself have a general idea of what I want to convey when I write, and I have a group of dedicated readers whom read and comment. I am thankful for their comments and their readership.

Write your OWN way. If you try to conform to everyone else's ideas, you'll be miserable......


Tony V.             :police:

Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2020, 04:30:15 PM »
I mean there's a billion different ways to bake a cake, and they all end up as cake in the end...

With that said, I would consider characters more than I would story. I know that my stories are often heavily reliant on an interesting premise, and I also know that's why they aren't interesting in the long run. So in your case, consider what would make the wife kill - what's so important to her that she'll kill to protect it, or what makes her so mad that she loses control? Then go from there.

So, to bring that hypothetical further: Let's say the wife will kill to protect her image as a politician. Okay, what will tarnish that image? Her husband having an affair being made public could surely do it, and now the woman he had an affair with is blackmailing her with that. There's your motive. Now take another step in that equation: What would make the woman blackmail the husband? Is she extremely poor? Maybe she is madly in love with the husband and want to get some of that politician cash before she breaks them apart... In other words, make interesting, strong, opinionated characters, and shit will happen. Why did the husband cheat in the first place? etc.

Indeed there is. And hopefully the cake will please at least some ;)

I agree with you on the characters. They are important to me. I have had a writers block for ages it feels like. But during that time I have still felt the need to keep things going. So what I have done is world building. I have created characters, some with an undefined purpose but with traits that I feel might come in handy. Others with less, with just a few words added to them for a possible purpose.

The world and setting the story takes place in pretty well established in my mind and supporting docs I have. But little is yet revealed in the  story it self. I did write a quick history guide that I contemplated adding when I post what I have so far, which will be shortly. But I have decided against it, for two reasons. First being, If I do post it without having taken advantage of what is in it first. I have locked myself into a world that might not fit where the story is taking me. Secondly, by not revealing more than I need, I can use the revelation of how things are, as part of the story. And that might be too good of an element to just give up like that.

I love how you spin things, considering how little I actually revealed. =) What you have done is pretty much what I did too. But since I did not want to give too much away about what is to come I left it pretty vague.  After this was posted, I got passed that writers block and I have since finished two chapters of the story. Maybe writing this thinking about how I created a story and how to structure things in my mind was that I needed.

Thank you for taking your time to reply. It is most appreciated.
Sander


Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2020, 04:39:31 PM »
Sander,

In every endeavor there will always be critics. You have to write the way you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable planning every detail, do that. I Myself have a general idea of what I want to convey when I write, and I have a group of dedicated readers whom read and comment. I am thankful for their comments and their readership.

Write your OWN way. If you try to conform to everyone else's ideas, you'll be miserable......


Tony V.             :police:

Tony,

I don't mind critics at all. With no feedback to tell us what works and what does not how are we to improve? The problem with feedback is that is often so limited. How do you interpret a story with one or two replies but a far greater number of readers? Are they an indication of all readers as a group or merely a random sample of those that actually dares to say something and also cares enough to do so?

What you read above that I wrote was actually part of the general idea for my chapter 3 in a series I am trying to write. I had a bit more but in order to not reveal too much I decided that it was not necessary to reveal in order to get the feedback I was hoping for.

As for dedicated readers, I need to write more to be able to get that. Maybe then if I do alright I will. But I write because I enjoy it. And it fascinates me to see where the story takes me. I will keep writing things my way. But getting some nudges along the way doesn't hurt. Both when it comes to how I structure things before writing and how I finally manage to present it.

Thank you for you response.
Sander

Offline Grumpy

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2020, 04:48:07 PM »
Don't be afraid to reveal outlines and ideas and plot twists if you are looking for feedback. Save the mystery for the reader of your story, not for the Writer's Block section. Spoiling it for a few willing souls is fine, especially if you're aware that you might need to change it around anyway. Also, spoiling something doesn't actually take away from enjoying it, which is why movie trailers often spoil the entire plot of movies (that's not an accident).

But it's great that you got past your block. I could never be a plotter myself, so I don't know how you guys do it. Happy writing.

Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2020, 05:08:22 PM »
Don't be afraid to reveal outlines and ideas and plot twists if you are looking for feedback. Save the mystery for the reader of your story, not for the Writer's Block section. Spoiling it for a few willing souls is fine, especially if you're aware that you might need to change it around anyway. Also, spoiling something doesn't actually take away from enjoying it, which is why movie trailers often spoil the entire plot of movies (that's not an accident).

But it's great that you got past your block. I could never be a plotter myself, so I don't know how you guys do it. Happy writing.

Maybe I shouldn't be. But something in me sort of does not want to reveal it. Almost like asking if something in a painting needs to be changed before the vernissage. (opening of and art exhibition sort of, french don't know how to explain it better). While it may indeed be good to know that the Swan looks more like a Duck. I am not sure I want to know ;) I am more comfortable asking how to paint the duck instead. If you understand how I mean.

You are right about trailers though and I might have to rethink how much I reveal in the future should I end up in a similar situation.

As for being a plotter. I would put myself as something in between. I have elements I want to be in there. I probably have a goal I want  to reach. The questions posed earlier is a way for me to explore options. What I wrote was a way for me to explore how to reach my goal and the reasoning behind it. Some of it is revealed in the chapters I just posted. Some is still left open for me to decide on.  But when I start writing I have rarely decided on what path to take. But they are back in my mind.

So what I do is I start telling the story, and eventually I get to a point where I have to make a decision. At that time the story has mostly already told me which route to take. It has been in the back of my mind growing, and I have unconsciously made the choice before I realise. But having a few fleshed out options seems to help me along. So in one way I am a plotter, I do have a final goal I want to reach. But the journey to get there is mostly open with bits of possible ideas that I might use on the way.

In the end, we write in a way that feels natural to us.

Happy reading and writing.
Sander

Offline LtBroccoli

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 10:02:37 AM »
For me, the structure depends on what the story is and what are the goals of the story.  I'll structure a one-off or short series differently than a continuing story, but they do have some pieces in common.

First, who are the characters and whose story is it?  I read your story last night, and it looks like it's centered on the point of view of the man.  If he's the protagonist, what's his story?

Second, after I figure out whose story it is comes the how to tell it.  Are we in their head hearing their thoughts, are we bouncing around, are we a fly on the wall, is this happening now, yesterday, or tomorrow?  Once I answer those questions, I like to set up the character if they're not known yet.  This gives me a baseline of what's going to happen.

Next, what is the crazy stuff that happens to make it an interesting story to tell?  In chapter 4 the wife is being convicted of murder and being sold into slavery?  Does the man try to intervene or let it happen?  Will he try to give her a soft landing or dump her like yesterday's trash?  What happens when he finds out that one of his rivals is trying to buy her? 

What happens after?  Does the story have a conclusion or is it open ended?  If you have a conclusion, does this proceed directly toward it or meander around?  Does the wife get tortured into spilling all of her secrets about her now ex-husband?  Does the husband decide to try to buy the wife back?  Does he screw the secretary instead?  And is there another story to tell after the conclusion.

One thing that helps me when structuring a story is I like to talk to the characters before I write anything.  They've lived an entire lifetime in their universe before fingers touch the keyboard.  Yes, I know, they only exist in your head at this point, but I'll try to talk to them, or at least understand where they're coming from.  I don't need to know what their favorite meals are right off the bat, but I want to know why are they here?  Imagine you're meeting them for the first time for a lunch interview.  Where do you go?  What do you do?  Understanding where they come from will explain how they'll react when crazy shit happens.  If the husband just saw evidence that his wife murdered the wife of one of his employees, how he will react will depend on how he got here.  Was he sick of her shit?  Did he want to leave her before?  Is he crushed that his wife is going away, or is he glad that he's rid of her?  Talking to him will expose how he would react?  What happens if the victim's husband buys the wife?

Once I know the characters, I can throw the crazy shit at them, but they might still behave a little unpredictably.  The husband may be sick of his wife's shit, but does he try to save her for their kids, or does he set up a shell company to buy her to have her beaten and raped?  Can he live with his decision either way?

Ultimately, know your characters and sketch out some ideas and see what works.  My favorite way of getting to know my characters is talking with them/to myself while driving.

Hope this helps.  You've got a good start, just figure out where you want to take it, and don't be afraid to change directions if it doesn't work.  In one story I'm working on, one of the accomplices will get torn up about his role in events he participated in, and he'll have a bit of a freak-out over it.  It wasn't going to happen originally, but events are twisting as I write them, and it feels like a better path going forward.
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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »
I don’t structure stories in detail, I usually tart with one very specific picture in my mind that I want to hit during my story. I then look whom do I need characterwise to get there, and what is my starting point. After that I pretty much start typing and experience how the story progresses from that, trying to connect the scenes with logic progression.

I wrote my story „pirates“ with the idea of a woman gagged by her husbands penis while raped, and a friend asked for a rape story including his wife. The rest was just me fantasizing about this. Just writing for my own enjoyment.
Im sure there are many more structured approaches then mine, but it has worked for me, and at least I enjoyed the ride.

Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 02:20:13 PM »
For me, the structure depends on what the story is and what are the goals of the story.  I'll structure a one-off or short series differently than a continuing story, but they do have some pieces in common.

First, who are the characters and whose story is it?  I read your story last night, and it looks like it's centered on the point of view of the man.  If he's the protagonist, what's his story?

Second, after I figure out whose story it is comes the how to tell it.  Are we in their head hearing their thoughts, are we bouncing around, are we a fly on the wall, is this happening now, yesterday, or tomorrow?  Once I answer those questions, I like to set up the character if they're not known yet.  This gives me a baseline of what's going to happen.

Next, what is the crazy stuff that happens to make it an interesting story to tell?  In chapter 4 the wife is being convicted of murder and being sold into slavery?  Does the man try to intervene or let it happen?  Will he try to give her a soft landing or dump her like yesterday's trash?  What happens when he finds out that one of his rivals is trying to buy her? 

What happens after?  Does the story have a conclusion or is it open ended?  If you have a conclusion, does this proceed directly toward it or meander around?  Does the wife get tortured into spilling all of her secrets about her now ex-husband?  Does the husband decide to try to buy the wife back?  Does he screw the secretary instead?  And is there another story to tell after the conclusion.

One thing that helps me when structuring a story is I like to talk to the characters before I write anything.  They've lived an entire lifetime in their universe before fingers touch the keyboard.  Yes, I know, they only exist in your head at this point, but I'll try to talk to them, or at least understand where they're coming from.  I don't need to know what their favorite meals are right off the bat, but I want to know why are they here?  Imagine you're meeting them for the first time for a lunch interview.  Where do you go?  What do you do?  Understanding where they come from will explain how they'll react when crazy shit happens.  If the husband just saw evidence that his wife murdered the wife of one of his employees, how he will react will depend on how he got here.  Was he sick of her shit?  Did he want to leave her before?  Is he crushed that his wife is going away, or is he glad that he's rid of her?  Talking to him will expose how he would react?  What happens if the victim's husband buys the wife?

Once I know the characters, I can throw the crazy shit at them, but they might still behave a little unpredictably.  The husband may be sick of his wife's shit, but does he try to save her for their kids, or does he set up a shell company to buy her to have her beaten and raped?  Can he live with his decision either way?

Ultimately, know your characters and sketch out some ideas and see what works.  My favorite way of getting to know my characters is talking with them/to myself while driving.

Hope this helps.  You've got a good start, just figure out where you want to take it, and don't be afraid to change directions if it doesn't work.  In one story I'm working on, one of the accomplices will get torn up about his role in events he participated in, and he'll have a bit of a freak-out over it.  It wasn't going to happen originally, but events are twisting as I write them, and it feels like a better path going forward.

Hi LtBroccoli.

I appreciate the time you must have taken to write this.

You are indeed right that the story is centered around the man, Carter. I have his story up to this pretty clear for me. And the intention is to reveal more of it as the story moves along. The purpose of the last chapter was to give him a reason to change, alter his life, and open up for him expanding and exploring. To ensure that happened I needed a dramatic change, that he was not himself the architect of. But more of a "Where do I go from here?"

The wife, yes, I am still contemplating how deal with her and any potential fallout from that. Will it be a quick "of with her head" solution. Or one that might come back to haunt him later? However I am leaning towards the first option, as I see enough potential scenarios that would make life hard and complicated for him. And my personal attachment to her as a character is small. She had a purpose and she has served it. Though if I get an idea in witch she could serve one more...

The story is at this moment open ended. That is not to say that there will be a point where I find that it is done. But for now, Carter is very much alive and what life has in store for him is yet to be determined.

Talk to your characters? I suppose that is a way of seeing it. This has been a project that I have been working on for a long time. 2+ years now. Every now and then I get an idea about one of the characters or part of a plot. I've got all this written down. Think I am at page 57 of that >.< Some of it have been what he has done, some that he might do. Not all compatible. So in a way I have asked him what will you do next?

As "Carter" feels now, he would probably get his wife as far away as possible, but is conflicted. What he saw woke something inside of him. But her betrayal might be the end of her. Maybe he will have her fade out as the final offering of peace with the murdered woman's husband? Having her life ended in a way of his choosing. Too early to tell.

As for stories changing direction. I think I have rewritten the last 3 chapters 4 times by now. And this was the one I felt was the right one. I agree with you. Don't be afraid to change things if they don't feel right or doesn't fit in. In one of the drafts I had his daughters being part of the crime. But I felt it was unnecessary and that they might be useful later on in the story.

I've been spending the last few hours writing small snippets about what could happen next.  What happens to his wife? Who helps him find his place? How will his daughters react? What did they know of their mothers secrets? With the new freedom from a suppressive wife, what will he go after? Will his iron focus on his company shift after this? There are endless possibilities =) Let's where it takes him and the story.

Thanks again for you thoughts and ideas.

Sander

Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 02:37:34 PM »
I don’t structure stories in detail, I usually tart with one very specific picture in my mind that I want to hit during my story. I then look whom do I need characterwise to get there, and what is my starting point. After that I pretty much start typing and experience how the story progresses from that, trying to connect the scenes with logic progression.

I wrote my story „pirates“ with the idea of a woman gagged by her husbands penis while raped, and a friend asked for a rape story including his wife. The rest was just me fantasizing about this. Just writing for my own enjoyment.
Im sure there are many more structured approaches then mine, but it has worked for me, and at least I enjoyed the ride.

For a shorter story I might do the same. I might even end up doing the same for a single chapter in a story. And I got at least one of those planned. But then in order to make a longer story interesting an overall plot is probably good, although it might not need to be revealed all right away. So I think both are needed, for me.

I think one thing is more important than all others things. Make sure you enjoy the ride. If it is not fun to write I am unsure if it will fun to read.

Thank you for the reply.
Sander


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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 03:06:55 PM »
How long is a longer story for you? Do you plan on writing a novel or novella?

Offline Sander

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 04:02:13 PM »
How long is a longer story for you? Do you plan on writing a novel or novella?

That is a good question, I don't think I really good answer for it though. I have decided one thing about the story I am writing though. I will not decide on a specific length yet. At this point I feel that it would no provide any benefit. I would risk ending up having to either compress it or drag it out in an unnatural way.

What I do, as with what I have written before is go along(not posted here, different genre). At some point and end comes to me and then I start writing towards that. That end might not be one that can not be picked up later though. So I think I am keeping things as open as I can for the moment.

But I guess I should try and give some sort of answer. A shorter story for me is one that I can start and finish reading in one go. My hope is that I can keep mine interesting a bit longer than that. When I check my written notes and check of what I have not yet written down as a proper idea as it has not ben fully formed I don't see my self having more than started. I am at about 7000 words now. That is the setup. What comes next is what was the initial idea. I can't see that being shorter than the setup. But how much longer, we shall see.

A longer story, erm, that is one that I can pick up read a part of and find natural points to put it down. Obviously it has to be good for me to pick it back up again ;) But I need there to be stories within the story.

A shorter answer is, I get the feeling it will be a longer story that I am writing. But that is all based on that I still have a good feeling about the story. No target length. Let's see were the story takes me. =)


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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 04:07:38 PM »
You might want to look up two videos on YouTube „how to blow things up“ and „how to make people care about it“ Jim butcher describes his process of storycraft, and its a quite good talk about structure of storytelling.

Offline SoftGameHunter

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Re: How do you structure/plan a story?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 06:34:41 PM »
I'm sort of all over the road. Usually if I start with too little then I get a page or two and it goes nowhere. An idea does not a story make. But if I try to plan too much detail it gets hard to move forward and I probably miss opportunities. My best stuff comes when something gives me a flash of insight into a world, some characters, and a plot, but then I let it move forward. A final destination is fine, as long as I'm not choosy about where it goes along the way.

And then to be extra difficult, there are exceptions to all of them.

My real advice is don't be afraid to work multiple stories at once. When one muse fades, wait for it and move to something else. I've been posting a lot lately, partly because a lot of them sat unfinished for a while until I came back and figured out how to end them.
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