Question 16 of the '42 questions about your rape fantasies' (this thread: http://ravishu.com/forums/index.php?topic=27621.0 ) asks:

How important is the enjoyment of the rapist(s) for your fantasy (Absolutely important, very important, not so important)

Most female respondents seem to feel the rapist's enjoyment is either absolutely important or very important.

By contrast, responses to  Question 30 - Do your scenes typically include the victim having an orgasm? - are much more mixed, with many women seeing their own orgasm as a much less important component of the fantasy.  

For the record, I don't think rapists have rights to anything at all, but we're dealing with fantasies here, specifically the female kind.  But the fact that most women who fantasize being raped see the rapist's pleasure as much more important than their own suggests questions about their underlying attitudes to men - again, in fantasy. (I realise that, in many cases, those attitudes probably won't extend to real life.)

So here are a couple of further questions. They're mainly aimed at women, but men will probably also have a view:

a) Is there some kind of assumption underlying your rape fantasies that 'might makes right'? That a man has a right to anything he can take by force, if he's tough enough to get it?

b) Is there an assumption that 'real' men shouldn't care about women's sexual feelings? That 'real' men are brutes, perhaps? That it's a capacity for selfish brutality that makes a man authentically male?

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

d) Is there an underlying assumption that a rapist has an absolute right to his pleasure and that women should unconditionally 'serve' men sexually?

I ought to emphasize again that we're discussing fantasy here. I really do recognize that women who have powerful masturbatory fantasies of being raped will also, in many cases, not express that desire in their real life, and would probably recognize that they'd hate to be raped for real.

[Titi]

Since these questions are geared towards women, I'll refrain from answering them. Though I can add something to this question:

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

I have met in my life two women who were very much into rape, one of which very off-puttingly so. Yet both also liked tender lovers, slow sex and the like. Much like my own approach to the fetish, it's triggered from time to time but it's not exclusively what drives them, and their lives didn't revolve around it.

[a_quiet_one]

My fantasy ravisher's enjoyment is the one absolutely essential component of the fantasy. Male, female, or other: he/she/they have to be deriving intense pleasure from my body, or the fantasy just doesn't work.

a) Is there some kind of assumption underlying your rape fantasies that 'might makes right'? That a man has a right to anything he can take by force, if he's tough enough to get it?

No. In fact, "right" has very little to do with anything, in my fantasies.  There's no room for moralizing or hackneyed cod-psychology. It's a fantasy! Justification is a waste of time.

b) Is there an assumption that 'real' men shouldn't care about women's sexual feelings? That 'real' men are brutes, perhaps? That it's a capacity for selfish brutality that makes a man authentically male?

No. If male, my fantasy ravisher isn't "more" of a man, or a better man, etc.; if female, she's not less womanly. Just a creature who happens to enjoy
that particular dynamic.

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

Again, no. In my fantasies, my climax is always forced -- either it occurs spontaneously and against my will in the course of my ravishment, or is brought on deliberately by my ravisher for their own pleasure. Outside of a fantasy or a ravishment play scene, I expect to be able to ask what my lover would enjoy and to communicate my own needs. Ravishment play scenes are always negotiated ahead of time to maximise everyone's enjoyment, so again, sensitivity to my feelings still comes into play... and doesn't make the scene any less hot.

d) Is there an underlying assumption that a rapist has an absolute right to his pleasure and that women should unconditionally 'serve' men sexually?

No, neither in the fantasy or out of it.

(I get that a minority of people do actually think that men or dominant lovers should force or rape, and might even express displeasure if a guy isn't "forceful enough" -- all I can say to them is: good grief, take some responsibility for your own desires! If you want sex, be willing to give clear consent; if you want a ravishment scene, negotiate one. Don't insist that other people violate their personal ethics just because you're too hung up to discuss sex like an adult.)

[Titi]

(I get that a minority of people do actually think that men or dominant lovers should force or rape, and might even express displeasure if a guy isn't "forceful enough" -- all I can say to them is: good grief, take some responsibility for your own desires! If you want sex, be willing to give clear consent; if you want a ravishment scene, negotiate one. Don't insist that other people violate their personal ethics just because you're too hung up to discuss sex like an adult.)

The only women I have met that had this kind of thought were deeply evangelical women, who were indoctrinated to accept men's superiority (though I think it hardly had to do with physical strength, but an underlying idea that men are superior in every way).

On the other hand, I have met quite a few guys who think this way, even if they don't have the guts to admit it. I can certainly understand the appeal of it, fantasy-wise, though it troubles me to think there are people who actually take this seriously.

On a last note, if you extrapolate the bare idea, a great many people think that, in one aspect of life or the other, they have the 'right' to something simply because they can. Think of every boss who's an ass to his or her employees, of every policeman who abuses his authority, of every corrupt judge, politician or businessman. Yet, all these people who think they have the right to something because they can, balk down when you say men have a right to rape. "But it's different...", yeah, uhum. Consistency ftw.

[amber_married]

Question 16 of the '42 questions about your rape fantasies' (this thread: http://ravishu.com/forums/index.php?topic=27621.0 ) asks:

How important is the enjoyment of the rapist(s) for your fantasy (Absolutely important, very important, not so important)

Most female respondents seem to feel the rapist's enjoyment is either absolutely important or very important.

By contrast, responses to  Question 30 - Do your scenes typically include the victim having an orgasm? - are much more mixed, with many women seeing their own orgasm as a much less important component of the fantasy.  

For the record, I don't think rapists have rights to anything at all, but we're dealing with fantasies here, specifically the female kind.  But the fact that most women who fantasize being raped see the rapist's pleasure as much more important than their own suggests questions about their underlying attitudes to men - again, in fantasy. (I realise that, in many cases, those attitudes probably won't extend to real life.)

So here are a couple of further questions. They're mainly aimed at women, but men will probably also have a view:

a) Is there some kind of assumption underlying your rape fantasies that 'might makes right'? That a man has a right to anything he can take by force, if he's tough enough to get it?

b) Is there an assumption that 'real' men shouldn't care about women's sexual feelings? That 'real' men are brutes, perhaps? That it's a capacity for selfish brutality that makes a man authentically male?

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

d) Is there an underlying assumption that a rapist has an absolute right to his pleasure and that women should unconditionally 'serve' men sexually?

I ought to emphasize again that we're discussing fantasy here. I really do recognize that women who have powerful masturbatory fantasies of being raped will also, in many cases, not express that desire in their real life, and would probably recognize that they'd hate to be raped for real.

I'll try to answer these from my perspective with the caveat that for me both the rapist and I orgasming is equally important, though my orgasm is one I fight and eventually scumb to anyway.

A) no there is no assumption that a man can have anything he wants, it is that it is wrong but he can have it anyway that is arousing.
B) there is no assumption that men shouldn't care for a woman's sexual feelings, it's that a man could know how best to please a woman without her realizing or accepting it.
C) a sensitive guy and the fantasy rapist are apples and oranges, i may orgasm more and harder with the rapist, but both are very pleasurable in different ways.
D)the underlying assumption for me is that a woman will achieve pleasure being forced to serve a man and he knows this.

Just my thoughts

I'm obviously not a woman, but to risk an answeer. I would imagine the reason most women who took the questionair, see, to prioritize the rapists enjoyments over their own is two fold:

1- It's a feeling desired thing.

2- It's keeping the fantasy consistent and belivable - Why would the rapist rape if he isn't enjoying it?

[voyeur]

I'll try to answer these from my perspective with the caveat that for me both the rapist and I orgasming is equally important, though my orgasm is one I fight and eventually scumb to anyway.

A) no there is no assumption that a man can have anything he wants, it is that it is wrong but he can have it anyway that is arousing.
B) there is no assumption that men shouldn't care for a woman's sexual feelings, it's that a man could know how best to please a woman without her realizing or accepting it.
C) a sensitive guy and the fantasy rapist are apples and oranges, i may orgasm more and harder with the rapist, but both are very pleasurable in different ways.
D)the underlying assumption for me is that wa oman will achieve pleasure being forced to serve a man and he knows this.

Just my thoughts

I find these responses very interesting - and enlightening, because they may go a long way towards explaining the puzzling (to me) prevalence of the rape fantasy among women. (But I know from your profile of course, amber, that you're speaking from experience here, since you tell us you've actually been raped.)

... there is no assumption that a man can have anything he wants, it is that it is wrong but he can have it anyway that is arousing.

... a man could know how best to please a woman without her realizing or accepting it.

... a woman will achieve pleasure being forced to serve a man and he knows this.

So being forced - i.e. being fucked entirely against your will - results in your getting 'more and harder' orgasms from the rapist. Being forced to do what you don't want to do results in pleasure for you - or something a long way beyond mere pleasure, perhaps?  Rape sex may be utterly loveless and filled with conflicting emotions on your part (including your own anger?) but, nevertheless, it takes you to a peak of sexual arousal - and is therefore ultimately satisfying too? (Sorry to ramble. I'm just trying, as a man, to imagine what the female experience of rape is like.)

As a man who's never attempted rape or even fantasized about raping, I have two personal responses to what you wrote: one is intellectual; the other is erotic.

a) My intellectual response is that your answers are fascinating because they lift the lid on the way modern ideas of femininity have been constructed. Feminism emphasizes women's autonomy, of course - and I really do subscribe to that autonomy, for both sexes. However, the desire to be forced in sex - whether in fact or fantasy - contradicts the feminist ideal. That doesn't, in my view, make feminism 'wrong' but it may indicate that the construct of femininity it promotes is necessarily artificial. Is it really part of women's essential nature to desire forced sex - to be raped? - or am I going much too far there? (I may be - and generalizations are always dangerous, of course.)

b) My erotic response is much simpler: "This is fucking hot!" That probably says more about male sexuality (mine anyway) than it does about women. I don't think I'd want to watch you being forced - I'm not a fan of rape porn even though I love porn in general - but I'm intensely aroused by the thought of a woman 'going over the top' - i.e. becoming completely abandoned in sex. The extremes of women's sexuality have always been a mystery to me, but the idea that you might enjoy sex intensely even though - and perhaps because - it's wrong is extremely exciting for me.

Although your answers seem paradoxical on the surface - e.g. it is that it is wrong but he can have it anyway that is arousing - it looks as if my responses are paradoxical as well. 

OK, apologies for the ramble. But I think you'll have got the general idea: I was fascinated by your post.

[[Bubbles]]

a) Is there some kind of assumption underlying your rape fantasies that 'might makes right'? That a man has a right to anything he can take by force, if he's tough enough to get it?

b) Is there an assumption that 'real' men shouldn't care about women's sexual feelings? That 'real' men are brutes, perhaps? That it's a capacity for selfish brutality that makes a man authentically male?

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

d) Is there an underlying assumption that a rapist has an absolute right to his pleasure and that women should unconditionally 'serve' men sexually?

I ought to emphasize again that we're discussing fantasy here. I really do recognize that women who have powerful masturbatory fantasies of being raped will also, in many cases, not express that desire in their real life, and would probably recognize that they'd hate to be raped for real.

I dont think ANY of those are my underlying assumptions.  (however I write for catharsis/therapy) I think IRL given the chance to smash her rapist's head in with a hammer any girl in my story would take it.  However if the story is written purely for fantasy, I could see how those could be a priori to reading or writing, or even enjoying those stories. 

[technodivinitas]

Question 16 of the '42 questions about your rape fantasies' (this thread: http://ravishu.com/forums/index.php?topic=27621.0 ) asks:

How important is the enjoyment of the rapist(s) for your fantasy (Absolutely important, very important, not so important)

Most female respondents seem to feel the rapist's enjoyment is either absolutely important or very important.

By contrast, responses to  Question 30 - Do your scenes typically include the victim having an orgasm? - are much more mixed, with many women seeing their own orgasm as a much less important component of the fantasy.  

For the record, I don't think rapists have rights to anything at all, but we're dealing with fantasies here, specifically the female kind.  But the fact that most women who fantasize being raped see the rapist's pleasure as much more important than their own suggests questions about their underlying attitudes to men - again, in fantasy. (I realise that, in many cases, those attitudes probably won't extend to real life.)

Before I answer your questions, I feel the need to point out that the questions in the survey ask if the pleasure of the rapist, and the orgasm of the victim are important to the reader/fantasizer, which isn't at all the same thing as "Is it their right?"

So here are a couple of further questions. They're mainly aimed at women, but men will probably also have a view:

a) Is there some kind of assumption underlying your rape fantasies that 'might makes right'? That a man has a right to anything he can take by force, if he's tough enough to get it?

Absolutely not! Even in my fantasy-world fantasies, where slavery and even rape are either legal, or at least socially acceptable, it's the very wrongness of that fact which fuels my desire. Might does NOT make right- but that doesn't mean Might won't take what it damned well pleases, just the same.

b) Is there an assumption that 'real' men shouldn't care about women's sexual feelings? That 'real' men are brutes, perhaps? That it's a capacity for selfish brutality that makes a man authentically male?

I'm not sure exactly how to answer this, since phrases like "real men should..." or "real men shouldn't..." honestly never cross my mind. Real men have penises. No wait. Even that's not always true. But real sadists enjoy torturing their victims, and real brutes like to fuck their victims like a fucking hurricane. I won't say often, but occasionally, a gentle hand comes into play in my fantasies too- a powerful character who chooses to offer a little kindness, or a weaker male who is sympathetic to my plight, or even shares it, and I don't think of either as "not a REAL man"...

c) Is there an underlying assumption that a man who doesn't force or rape, but tries to be sensitive to a woman's feelings during sex instead, is therefore less of a man - and, perhaps, less satisfying for the woman as a lover?

See above.

d) Is there an underlying assumption that a rapist has an absolute right to his pleasure and that women should unconditionally 'serve' men sexually?

Not at all, in a universal sense- though in fantasy realms I often imagine that legally some or all men have such rights. And once again, the very nature of the wrongness is kinda the point.

I ought to emphasize again that we're discussing fantasy here. I really do recognize that women who have powerful masturbatory fantasies of being raped will also, in many cases, not express that desire in their real life, and would probably recognize that they'd hate to be raped for real.

Yup- I know from experience, the real deal's no fun. (Though I suspect my predilections helped me to handle it better than many women do.)