[Natlynn]

there are always gags for total submission... but I wouldn't like that. Perhaps my vile lexicon would procure more spankings...hehehe 

[jt84]

And I also dislike Gor for the same reason--it assumes feminine inferiority and submission
in every case.  Kind of reminds me of a literary Taliban.  I have a friend who's a Gorean,
and in spite of his "code", he slips into treating me like a human being.

I guess he should be flogged for that.    (j/king about gor, for those who lack a sarcasm filter)

[Strapwelder]

Now that I've read everyone's post I have to go back to the beginning to read what was the original post. But I did enjoy reading everyone's thoughts!

[Strapwelder]

Vanilla
D/s
M/s

Mmmm, ok let's see what this stirs up.
Vanilla, is what marriage has become over time of men failing to take the leadership role that we are supposed to have from the start. We can list a multitude of how this has transpired but I'd be getting away from the thread.
D/s - ok I know I'm cutting women out of the D part of this, get over it. D/s relationship men leading, woman following. Chill ladies let me finish :) its my thoughts that both parties bring to the table a wide range of experiences and knowledge. When matters or issues whatever you want to label them come to light and a decision needs to be made the man better have a woman by his side that can and will voice opinions and views so that a creditable decision can be made. There are times that both parties have strong feelings about what needs to be done and they differ. Then when it comes down to acting and still a unified agreement hasn't been reached the it's time for the woman to take her role as the submissive and support the mans chosen path. No I'm not saying its always right but at some point she has to support. It's the way we learn, if you always make the right choice then you are extremely lucky but for those of us that do make mistakes it's called learning and life is a classroom where everyday is a school day.

[Hazard]

Dom/sub = For me this is a natural thing that evolves in a relationship and comes out of respect for each other.  If I trust you to make decisions you become my Dominant, and I enjoy serving you.  I am very much a "my submission must be earned" kind of gal.  Accordingly I am typically suspicious of anyone who approaches me and says "because I am DOM you must submit to ME."  I am submissive to no one unless I choose to be.

That's precisely how I see it, and that's how I'd want it to be. If I hook up with a girl and she is automatically submissive from the word go, expecting me to guide her in life and make decisions, it's a turn off. She is 'weak' not 'submissive'. A sub to me is a woman who is in control of her own life, can make her own decisions and will continue to do so when she meets me. However, once she comes to the opinion that my decisions are wise, and my requests/orders are fair, she will start to give me more and more power. This is mostly in the bedroom, but also in normal life too.

The dominant role needs to be earned, in the same way respect does. As such I will happily identify myself as a Dom to girls, but I won't act like one until she begins to show submission - i.e. agreeing with my thoughts, plans, suggestions. Then it's a slow introduction of more over time, winning her trust and showing her that submission and following my lead is safe and rewarding.

[Brek]

This might be a point of distinction between pure BDSM and rape play, though the two are more of a continuum.

Someone into pure BDSM wants to voluntarily abrogate his or her natural rights as a person to someone else. They voluntarily choose to be put into a position where they obey. That personality type tends to be comfortable with being ordered around. Both parties are getting something from the exchange: The dom gets the thrill of control, and the sub gets the warm ensconcing safety of submission (contrasted with the potential pain of the B and SM parts). In that interaction, mouthiness generally would seem to get in the way. Of course, in practice, many people who are quite dominant in their daily life want to take a break from that dominance, and many people who find themselves quite meek and submissive in their daily life can fulfill that need to be strong and in control in their sex life. So a person who is generally mouthy can, outside of the BDSM / sex, still be a sub. But inside of it? I suppose someone could get off on mouthiness, but it'd be a pretty odd combination.

In rape play, on the other hand, mouthiness can be considered part of the point. One of the fundamental motives in rape play is to take something from someone who [/i]doesn't[/i] want to give it up. In that case, the real-life sub can pretend to be mouthy (or, alternatively, express their inner sarcastic bitch) in the fantasy, precisely so that the dom (the play rapist) can in the context of the fantasy more effectively control her or punish her. That's pretty much the whole premise of Pornstar Punishment, which is pretty close to rape fantasy: Bitchy, mouthy person gets put into her place.

[Colorado Vampire]

In your mind what do vanilla, D/s, and M/s relationships mean?

What is a bottom, submissive and a slave?  If you use definitions of these terms from elsewhere let us know.  If they have different meanings in your own mind let us know that too.

When my brother was married and having troubles, the marriage counselor told him that there is no such thing as a totally equal 50-50 relationship.  One member is always dominant, and squabbles over this often leads to trouble.  If this is true, is the recognition and formalization of D/s within a relationship a good thing?

What happens when one partner is Dominant in one aspect but not in others?  Is the D/s relationship flexible enough to allow for this?

And remember that in this thread no one is wrong and no one is right.  This is a thread about feelings and perceptions.  Not correct and incorrect.

Vanilla: Personally, I think 'vanilla' has gotten a bad rap in most bdsm circles, and the attitudes often come across to me almost like Dr. Seuss's 'Star Bellied Sneetches'.

D/s: Just the natural yin and yang of nearly all relationships; there is a dominant figure and a submissive one in almost every dynamic, whether sexual or platonic.
D/s is also the assumed roles of bdsm practitioners.

M/s: Non-consensual.

What is a bottom? The sexually submissive / recipient partner in S&M sex-play.

A submissive? An adjective that describes someone who yields to a dominant figure.

A slave? Someone imprisoned or detained without consent, whether for sex or forced labor.

[Kagome Higurashi]

*I'm not a fan of early mornings, I did post in this thread previous, I actually did want to modify my previous post because I had more to add onto it, but in my tired state I hit the remove button instead and now find myself having to retype it, I'll try to mimic what I wrote previous while adding in something more to it.*

As I said previously, for me it does come down to what the particular person perceives as perfect for them, every s/s does have a general idea of their ideal D/M, just as most D/M have an idea for a perfect slave. That being said some D/M do love mouthy slaves, others aren't too fond of them. Some like the passion and intensity that subs can bring to things, some D/M enjoy 'breaking them in' because it adds to the challenge of things and can make things interesting. On the opposite side of the coin, many find a 'living doll' idea to be ideal to them, but some others find that far too boring, and in all honesty, I am not a D/M by any means, but I can see how that become repetitive and boring to some people. All goes by taste, and that's all part of the 'hunt', if you will, very much like any relationship, you find the ideal person for you the one that works for you.

When it comes down to 50/50 relationships, it is true, there is no such thing as them, one person has to take control of the situation, there has to be a leader, there has to be one Captain to a relation, can't have two people running one ship. In that sense there is always a leader in the relationship. With that in mind, different people show talents in different things, some are better talkers, some are better at fixing things, does the situation switch around? No. But it shows what each person is good at and allows the person who is the leader in the relationship to decide what should be done and the best time to do it. In the case of fixing something, you'll often find a wife, for instance, mentioning that something has to be fixed, in this case the husband will be the one to fix it, and usually he'll find himself down so, in that sense the wife is in control, she is making the order to fix something, definitely not the best of examples, but in terms of the Captain/Crew, the Captain tells someone when something must be down, and the Crew goes and does it. So in that sense, every relationship needs a Captain, it needs a leader, and even if two people say they are 50/50, more than likely one of them is in control, it's just that neither of them have fully noticed it. This does often lead to fights, these fights usually dealing with a sort of 'power-struggle' with both sides jocking for control over the 'power' in question. In this case, it is the leader that wins, or in some manner, let's the 'Crew' believe that have won something, but only because the leader allowed them to do so.

That being said, my outlook on it, is like down, but when it comes to the actual practice and terms? Well, let's see...

slave - This one I feel can sort of be willing and unwilling at the same time. It can be either or both. In my general opinion and slave is more of a position more for the 'living doll' types, there purpose is basically that of one. Willingly, the position is brought down to more of those that are willing to give up there lives to a person, not just small little kinks, but just about everything, mind, body, soul, the whole being, handing over complete control to their owners. In the opposite outlook, this can be unwilling in that same way, because a slave can be viewed as an unwilling participant, but I person believe that it can go both ways, it's just the general outlook on it. In both cases however, willingly or unwillingly, the slave is required to do whatever is asked without question, they have no life, outside of their owners life.

submissive - I find the that is sort of the happy medium of things, that the submissive does hold some control over what is happening to them, more along on what they like, and what they dislike, in terms that the relationship her is more open, with the D/s, talking about there kinks beforehand, setting out some ground-rules and working on from there. This applies more as a relationship than M/s to me, in terms that unlike with the M/s situation, you'll find yourself looking for someone that isn't a total 'living doll' and that has a mind of her own. Unlike the slave, the submissive has more of a mind that she can use, she has a little more 'control' over her situation, but in this case is willingly giving herself to a Dominate, but doesn't maintain to being just a doll, she has a life, at least more of one than the slave.

bottom - With the T/b look at things, the bottom, has just as much if not even more control over the situation in terms of the allowance to use a safe word to stop a certain situation, the safe word is often set-up earlier in time, and usually, as far I as I could usually see it to be, terms aren't set up before hand, things just gone onward until the word is said, so in this case, it comes down more towards trust and communication than with D/s. You have to trust that your partner will not go too far, while also trusting your partner that they will speak the safe-word when needed to. Unlike above she has complete control over her life.

[lateiadel]

A bottom is someone who enjoys sex when their on the bottom. I get to lay down and enjoy a mans dick for a wile. Who I am the rest of the time has nothing to do with bottom.                                                                        A submissive gos along with it.                                                                                                                 A slave has no choice but to submit. They are someone else property all the time.

*I'm not a fan of early mornings, I did post in this thread previous, I actually did want to modify my previous post because I had more to add onto it, but in my tired state I hit the remove button instead and now find myself having to retype it, I'll try to mimic what I wrote previous while adding in something more to it.*

As I said previously, for me it does come down to what the particular person perceives as perfect for them, every s/s does have a general idea of their ideal D/M, just as most D/M have an idea for a perfect slave. That being said some D/M do love mouthy slaves, others aren't too fond of them. Some like the passion and intensity that subs can bring to things, some D/M enjoy 'breaking them in' because it adds to the challenge of things and can make things interesting. On the opposite side of the coin, many find a 'living doll' idea to be ideal to them, but some others find that far too boring, and in all honesty, I am not a D/M by any means, but I can see how that become repetitive and boring to some people. All goes by taste, and that's all part of the 'hunt', if you will, very much like any relationship, you find the ideal person for you the one that works for you.

When it comes down to 50/50 relationships, it is true, there is no such thing as them, one person has to take control of the situation, there has to be a leader, there has to be one Captain to a relation, can't have two people running one ship. In that sense there is always a leader in the relationship. With that in mind, different people show talents in different things, some are better talkers, some are better at fixing things, does the situation switch around? No. But it shows what each person is good at and allows the person who is the leader in the relationship to decide what should be done and the best time to do it. In the case of fixing something, you'll often find a wife, for instance, mentioning that something has to be fixed, in this case the husband will be the one to fix it, and usually he'll find himself down so, in that sense the wife is in control, she is making the order to fix something, definitely not the best of examples, but in terms of the Captain/Crew, the Captain tells someone when something must be down, and the Crew goes and does it. So in that sense, every relationship needs a Captain, it needs a leader, and even if two people say they are 50/50, more than likely one of them is in control, it's just that neither of them have fully noticed it. This does often lead to fights, these fights usually dealing with a sort of 'power-struggle' with both sides jocking for control over the 'power' in question. In this case, it is the leader that wins, or in some manner, let's the 'Crew' believe that have won something, but only because the leader allowed them to do so.

That being said, my outlook on it, is like down, but when it comes to the actual practice and terms? Well, let's see...

slave - This one I feel can sort of be willing and unwilling at the same time. It can be either or both. In my general opinion and slave is more of a position more for the 'living doll' types, there purpose is basically that of one. Willingly, the position is brought down to more of those that are willing to give up there lives to a person, not just small little kinks, but just about everything, mind, body, soul, the whole being, handing over complete control to their owners. In the opposite outlook, this can be unwilling in that same way, because a slave can be viewed as an unwilling participant, but I person believe that it can go both ways, it's just the general outlook on it. In both cases however, willingly or unwillingly, the slave is required to do whatever is asked without question, they have no life, outside of their owners life.

submissive - I find the that is sort of the happy medium of things, that the submissive does hold some control over what is happening to them, more along on what they like, and what they dislike, in terms that the relationship her is more open, with the D/s, talking about there kinks beforehand, setting out some ground-rules and working on from there. This applies more as a relationship than M/s to me, in terms that unlike with the M/s situation, you'll find yourself looking for someone that isn't a total 'living doll' and that has a mind of her own. Unlike the slave, the submissive has more of a mind that she can use, she has a little more 'control' over her situation, but in this case is willingly giving herself to a Dominate, but doesn't maintain to being just a doll, she has a life, at least more of one than the slave.

bottom - With the T/b look at things, the bottom, has just as much if not even more control over the situation in terms of the allowance to use a safe word to stop a certain situation, the safe word is often set-up earlier in time, and usually, as far I as I could usually see it to be, terms aren't set up before hand, things just gone onward until the word is said, so in this case, it comes down more towards trust and communication than with D/s. You have to trust that your partner will not go too far, while also trusting your partner that they will speak the safe-word when needed to. Unlike above she has complete control over her life.

Great post!  Giving you a merit for it!  Missed you in chat the last couple nights!

[pinkwarkitten14]

I agree on most accounts here... As I have understood it, Top/bottom is generally for play only.... Dom/me & sub are generally a more formal relationship.... Master/Mistress and slave, generally speaking will an even more formal relationship, usually with more formal protocols. I have been asked several times "what is the difference between a submissive and a slave?" Well, being a slave involves giving up one's rights to Someone one trusts totally and completely. That said, a slave, just as a submissive, is still NOT a doormat. We have limits and we have the right, should we so choose, to say NO. A slave gives him/herself totally to his/her Master/Mistress of their own accord when they are sure that they are beyond completely comfortable with Them and know that they can trust Them wholly. No one submissive or even slave is totally limitless and we need to be sure that a Dom/me or Master/Mistress will respect that.... If they don't, then it's not going to be a good situation for anyone. So many submissives/slaves, especially new ones, enter into relationships with people who claim to be a Dominant, without knowing their rights as a submissive/slave, without knowing that it IS okay to say no to things, and just wind up getting hurt somehow. I personally, at one time, was in a bit of a relationship with a "Dom" who was very emotionally abusive to me, I just didn't see it until somebody explained it to me. I also agree that just because I identify as a slave, does NOT mean that I am YOUR slave. Nor does the fact that I call many people "Sir," "Lady," "Miss" or "Ma'am" out of simple respect mean I am theirs either. I am owned, but I call Her "Mistress." I call people by titles until it is proven to me otherwise that I shouldn't, be it that they don't like it, or are submissive themselves, or lose that respect.

Also, just as a little side note here, in the Gorean lifestyle, woman does not necessarily equal slave, simply because of gender. There are many Free women on Gor and there are male slaves on Gor as well.

[Qahina]

When I started to dip my toe into the whole BDSM topic I had certain definitions in mind not unlike those posted here. I read a lot of books, watched movies and clawed my way through many forums but the bottom line is:

As with "vanilla" sex there is no true status quo.

For some, the terms sub, bottom or slave are interchangeable with no discernible difference. In other communities they are used like titles with clear definitions. The former only truly works in a larger circle of people who agree on certain concepts like on themed sex parties or maybe clubs with rules for their members not unlike in the "O" series.

Other than that it is a matter of personal interpretation. I can illustrate this with the example of spanking. For some spanking has to involve visible welts and reddened or even bruised skin to even count as spanking.
Other define the length of time the slave (male or female) has to be punished or a number of hits. Again the strength of the blows as well as the instrument used can cause a huge variety of pain levels as well as damage to the recipient of the spanking.

I personally don't think it would be right to say that a certain level of spanking is wrong or another right in general. Of course I have the level I prefer and choose my slaves accordingly and there are practices here in Germany in the darker circles that may even appall me a little, especially where lasting damage is involved in every spanking session.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't think mouthy and sub (or slave) is a contradiction at all, not generally speaking at least. There are masters (doms) who will or cannot tolerate a slave looking them in the eyes or speaking without being spoken to first while others would look down on such a slave. It is a matter of personal preference and should be treated as such.

In my experience, most of the time the BDSM community as a whole is rather open when it comes to the exchange of sexual experience or preference and thus it is fortunately relatively easy to find someone with the same level of depravity.

I personally prefer outspoken and willful slave women. I even had quite the argument with another master about it. He wanted me to allow him to punish my slave because she had not shown him "the proper respect" and I denied the request explaining to him that she obeys and respects me perfectly and as he is not her master she owes him nothing until I say so. He still hates my guts for that and speaks very negatively about me and my slaves. That is his prerogative I suppose but in my eyes every slave and master relationship is different and should have the right to be.

Q.

I can, at times, be a bit of a SAS, apparently, but we work it into our play. Being a full-time submissive, it's pretty logical that sometimes, my mood will not be 100% what it 'could' or 'should' be. Those are the days that my Master sets me loose on the idiots of the internet, or exiles me to quiet meditation and boot blacking in my room, depending on if he is in the mood to be entertained or remind me of my place.

I'm a bit sassy on a good day. I love to make my Master think about what's going on. That's why he keeps me, I'm interesting and fiery. I don't think that the idea of submissive=doormat should be one we perpetuate.

[Qahina]

As I said, nothing wrong with that, in my eyes.

Q.

[FriskyMinx]

Hey - If topping from the bottom gets the job done, then I say mouth off all you want, Sister!