[GEMINIGUY]

So a while back an RU member mentioned the novel for Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, so I decided to dig it out and start reading it again.
And it got me thinking. Considering what a powerful Sith Darth Vader was, did you realize how stupid he actually was?
For starters, at one point in the novel Darth Vader says "This will be a day long remembered. It already has been witness to the final extinction of the Jedi."
Really? That is one of the stupidest thing someone who wields the Force could possible say! He supposedly know how to use the Force, and supposedly is greater than the Jedi. But Jedi like Yoda sensed things in the Force, and if Darth Vader was truly as powerful as he claimed to be, he'd have sensed three things:

1) Declaring the final extinction of the Jedi was premature. VERY premature.

2) He was SO close to Princess Leia. Why didn't he realize she was his daughter?

3) On the Death Star he sensed Obi-Wan Kenobi. Why didn't he sense his own son who was also on board the Death Star?

[GEMINIGUY]

Not to mention Luke was already using the Force, Darth Vader SHOULD have sensed another user.
All of this tells me Darth Vader was very stupid, and/or didn't really know how to use the Force as well as he should have been able to IF he was as powerful as he claimed.

[Algore]

1) Declaring the final extinction of the Jedi was premature. VERY premature.

2) He was SO close to Princess Leia. Why didn't he realize she was his daughter?

3) On the Death Star he sensed Obi-Wan Kenobi. Why didn't he sense his own son who was also on board the Death Star?

 I acknowledge your points, but:

1: A Jedi requires training. If Kenobi was dead then there would be no other Jedi (Yoda hadn't been introduced at this point).

2: Maybe he did. So what? While she might well have had Jedi potential, she was his prisoner - and thus had no chance of realising her potential (unless a plucky band of rag-tag adventurers defied the odds to... etc.). Additionally, SHE had no idea that she was his daughter - would would have tipped HIM off? Does Force ability come with DNA recognition?

3: See above. Note also that Kenobi was a powerful Jedi - who Vader had trained under and fought with! Of course Vader would sense Kenobi. A massive (and familiar) Force presence. At the time Luke was a novice - barely aware of his own potential. He wouldn't have been even a blip on the radar.

4: How many times did Luke jerk off thinking about Leia before he discovered she was his sister? That had to have been an awkward moment...

I have always believed that Lucas altered the story as he went along.  It really doubt he intended for Leia to be a Skywalker when you watch the original trailers and promotions.  They were all geared toward Luke being the valiant prince that was falling for the princess.  "Who is she? She's beautiful."  Then Luke getting jealous when Han suggests he and the Princess could be a 'thing'.  Not something that someone intending to make it all one big family affair would have done.  I think the story just evolved and in expanding the universe he found a way to alter the characters origins etc without interfering with the continuity.

I don't even think that it was originally intended that "Darth" be a title for a Lord of the Sith.  Otherwise, with all the Darths throughout history how on earth would Obi-wan be training a "a young jedi name Darth Vader...betrayed and murdered your father?"  I think that "Darth" was just supposed to be the first name of the guy that killed Luke's father.  I believe It wasn't until later when Lucas decided to make Vader into Luke's father and make Obi-wan's explanation into a sly play on words "from a certain point of view".  Obi-wan even said "...only a master of evil, Darth"  It doesn't make sense that Obi-wan would address him by a formal title in that situation.

But it's George's universe and he can do whatever he wants with it!!

There will always be answers to the questions about the way things happened in EP IV...but its still fun to ask!

The Emperor was described differently in the prologue of the Star Wars novelization and it sounded like he was being influenced by the Sith but not that he was one...
At some point he must have stopped playing the dual role and everyone would have known he was a Sith, therefore on the Death Star everyone should have known that Vader was NOT all that was left of "that ancient religion."  Considering how massive the wars were between the Sith and the Jedi and how powerful they were it seems odd to say to one of the most well known Siths that had a 'sad devotion' to it.

But it's George's universe and he can do whatever he wants with it!!

Not anymore it isn't.

[Algore]

I have always believed that Lucas altered the story as he went along.  It really doubt he intended for Leia to be a Skywalker when you watch the original trailers and promotions.  They were all geared toward Luke being the valiant prince that was falling for the princess.  "Who is she? She's beautiful."  Then Luke getting jealous when Han suggests he and the Princess could be a 'thing'.  Not something that someone intending to make it all one big family affair would have done.  I think the story just evolved and in expanding the universe he found a way to alter the characters origins etc without interfering with the continuity.

I don't even think that it was originally intended that "Darth" be a title for a Lord of the Sith.  Otherwise, with all the Darths throughout history how on earth would Obi-wan be training a "a young jedi name Darth Vader...betrayed and murdered your father?"  I think that "Darth" was just supposed to be the first name of the guy that killed Luke's father.  I believe It wasn't until later when Lucas decided to make Vader into Luke's father and make Obi-wan's explanation into a sly play on words "from a certain point of view".  Obi-wan even said "...only a master of evil, Darth"  It doesn't make sense that Obi-wan would address him by a formal title in that situation.

But it's George's universe and he can do whatever he wants with it!!

There will always be answers to the questions about the way things happened in EP IV...but its still fun to ask!

The Emperor was described differently in the prologue of the Star Wars novelization and it sounded like he was being influenced by the Sith but not that he was one...
At some point he must have stopped playing the dual role and everyone would have known he was a Sith, therefore on the Death Star everyone should have known that Vader was NOT all that was left of "that ancient religion."  Considering how massive the wars were between the Sith and the Jedi and how powerful they were it seems odd to say to one of the most well known Siths that had a 'sad devotion' to it.

Yeah, good points. Lucas was making it up as he went along.

[GEMINIGUY]

Great posts, everyone!
I still say Darth Vader was stupid and not as well-trained in the Force as he claimed to be. At least that's how Episode VI portrays him. In Episode II and III we see how powerful he was, but arrogant as well. Maybe in his arrogance in Episode IV he wasn't "trusting his feelings" because he wasn't even considering them. I think he should have sensed something about Leia and Luke, something familiar. And Luke may have been new at using the Force, still if Darth Vader put the Force to better use he'd have sensed the Force was being used by another and that the Jedi were not extinct. He just seemed to do things without thinking.

[cartman13]

Darth Vader was the most powerfull Jedi....according to the micro or whatever that blood test said.
He had the highest concetration of that stuff thus making him more capable of using the force...if trainned properly.
His training never really ended as he was pushing to become a Jedi Master at a very young age something the Jedi Counsil agreed to but not really wanting to.More over it is claimed that the power of the dark side is stronger thus clouding the jedi counsil's mind from the plot all those years to lead to their extrermination.
Also as Yoda says in Episode 3,the Jedi were foolish to let that happen under their watch.Although you cant really tell how many the Jedi were,there werent more that a few hundreds and all those years of peace without actual fighting has made them weak.
The Jedi are not all knowing and all powerful.
As for the story of Sktwalkers its true that its changed as the movies were being filmed.And this is why the new trilogy (episodes 1-2-3) dont actually make a lot of sense.It took the empire 18 yrs to complete Death Star 1....(from episode 3 to episode 4) which was supposedly their only super weapon....but it only took them a few months to start building Death Star 2 (episode 3 to episode 6) .
Also balance in the force doesnt it mean...to be the same....so 1 Jedi...1 sith!
I guess the jedi wanted it all!

Many of the written books are way better than the actual movies,providing a lot more history to the Star Wars history.I've played Jedi Knight The Old Republic which is supposedly 3000 years before the movies.
BTW i suggest that you read THE DARK EMPIRE....good stuff about what happens after Episode 6,which was the actual story until Disney bought the rights and decided to change the history.

[Algore]

Darth Vader was the most powerfull Jedi....according to the micro or whatever that blood test said.
He had the highest concetration of that stuff thus making him more capable of using the force...if trainned properly.
His training never really ended as he was pushing to become a Jedi Master at a very young age something the Jedi Counsil agreed to but not really wanting to.More over it is claimed that the power of the dark side is stronger thus clouding the jedi counsil's mind from the plot all those years to lead to their extrermination.

 ^^ True - he had the highest KNOWN mitochlorian count... although we don't know what count Palpatine had - and he was unquestionably badass. But it's not true that his training never ended - when he became Palpatine's apprentice he would have continued to learn. It's also not true that the Dark side was stronger. Yoda said it is "quicker, easier, more seductive..." - or something like that (gimmie a break, it's been at least 15 years and I'm drunk.)

 If one accepts that the Dark side was geared toward destruction then it's easy to believe it was more powerful - it's easier to destroy than to create or protect - but that does not mean that the Light side was less powerful. The Force was simply a power that existed - the use was up to the user. You can use a shovel to dig a hole - or to beat someone over the head with. The tool is the same - the outcome is different - althought hitting someone in the head is p[robably easier than digging a hole.

Also as Yoda says in Episode 3,the Jedi were foolish to let that happen under their watch.Although you cant really tell how many the Jedi were,there werent more that a few hundreds and all those years of peace without actual fighting has made them weak.
The Jedi are not all knowing and all powerful.

 That's fair. Yoda said "thjere are always two Sith" - Master and Apprentice. Since those two could assfuck the Jedi, one an assume the Jedi had some shortcomings.

Also balance in the force doesnt it mean...to be the same....so 1 Jedi...1 sith!
I guess the jedi wanted it all!

 Yeah - "balance" doesn't mean "good guys win". Realistically it would mean that the light and dark sides have equal power.

I made the point some years ago that Vader DID actually restore balance to the force as prophesied - when he killed the Emperor.

THink about it - while Palpatine was around he was the most powerful Force user - even Yoda (strongest Jedi we've seen) couldn't beat him. When Yoda trained Luke on Dagobah Yoda was close to nine hundred (see ROTJ) - which means that back in episode three (when Luke and Leia were conceived) he was still over 800.

 EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS TO LEARN JEDI SHIT? Yoda should have been crapping sunshine. So given Palpatines's superiority we can say there was an "imbalance" in the force - which Vader corrected by killing him. (Although I don't know where the "balance" came in if Luke was the last Jedi standing). True balance wouold mean both sides weequal - meaning that neither had any real influence.

[GEMINIGUY]

I'm into the Star Wars novels and have read at least a dozen. One of my favorites is Allegiance, set after Episode IV: A New Hope. A young Mara Jade is in there but her and a young Luke never cross paths.
You say Jedi aren't all-knowing. That isn't necessarily true. Sure, the Sith can cloud things so the Jedi can't sense them, Yodi said that themselves.
But the Jedi do know much if they put the Force to good use. Or in the case of Anakin and Luke, have visions - Anakin had visions of his mother dying, then Padme, Luke had a vision of Han and Leia dying.
I don't agree that Episodes I-III are confusing. Sure, some things don't jive with say Episode IV, but George Lucas weaved a good story throughout the prequel trilogy. Already knowing that Palpatine was the Sith Lord was kind of annoying, but getting to see him slowly maneuver events leading to him becoming Emperor was brilliant.

[cartman13]

Actually Yoda could have beaten the Emperor but for some unknown reason (probably because it would ruin the story) he didnt finish the job in the Senate.It was obvious that he could have won!

According to the ''actual'' history,not all Jedi Knights died during the clone wars,and more over not all Jedi in training did,they went in hiding just like Obi Wan,but since noone contacted each other everyone assumed they were all killed or each one was the last one.Also there were more Sith in training by Duku and The Emperor and General Grivous,that were used as Imperial Generals the later years as seen in the Clone Wars series.

There are more and when Episode 6 ends,Luke isnt the only one left.As we seen in the new Episode 7 he tried to find whoever was left and restart the Jedi order,something we saw went bad with the Emo Sith he created that fell to the control of that unknown super evil and killed all the Jedi the Luke had started training.

[Algore]

Actually Yoda could have beaten the Emperor but for some unknown reason (probably because it would ruin the story) he didnt finish the job in the Senate.It was obvious that he could have won!

 Obvious when? When he crawled away through a maintenance duct? Or when he said: "Assfucked I am. Without lube I took it."

[cartman13]

Actually Yoda could have beaten the Emperor but for some unknown reason (probably because it would ruin the story) he didnt finish the job in the Senate.It was obvious that he could have won!

 Obvious when? When he crawled away through a maintenance duct? Or when he said: "Assfucked I am. Without lube I took it."

03:50....the look on Palpatines face is that he knows he has lost!But for some unknown reason Yoda decided to leave.
You know why?
Because if he had won....no more Emperor....so how could he have appeared on episodes 4-6!

[Algore]

03:50....the look on Palpatines face is that he knows he has lost!But for some unknown reason Yoda decided to leave.
You know why?
Because if he had won....no more Emperor....so how could he have appeared on episodes 4-6!

No.

 It's true that Palpatine was shocked when Yoda managed to repel his force-lightning - but the resultant explosion threw both of them back. Palpatine managed to cling to something whereas Yoda took a hard fall - he crawled away because he was too injured to continue the fight. But why did Yoda fall on the ground? We've seen Anakin jump fearlessly from a skycar and land without injury on another (and he was an apprentice at the time). We've seen Palpatine, Dooku and Vader use the force to throw massive objects. We've also seen Yoda drag Luke's TIE fighter out of a swamp. There is no reason that Yoda couldn't have cushioned his fall - unless he was too hurt by the force-blast to use his powers effectively. For that matter, if a force-assisted jump can take you 20 feet in the air (Kenobi, Ep 1) then Jedi friggin' Master Yoda should have at least been able to pull himself to safety using a couple of fingers instead of losing his grip.

 While Yoda might well have been the more powerful of the two, his loss wasn't due to throwing in the towel - it was because he was injured by the blast after repulsing Palpatine's force-lightning, and was too weak to save himself from falling. Palpatine likely suffered similar injury from the blast but was able to get a grip on something and thus didn't suffer the same fall.

 Side note: Why did Palpatine turn old and ugly when using his lightning against Windu? Some say it is because Windu's sabre was reflecting the energy, but I don't buy that. Palpatine could have used force-repulsion to stop Windu hitting him instead of continuing the lightning that was being deflected back at him.  Personally I think he aged because using the lightning meant channeling the Dark Side of the force directly - something that living creatures aren't supposed to do.

[Algore]

 And BTW: Palpatine carves through 3 Jedi in this scene - only Windu survives long enough to challenge him. Either Windu was a complete moron who chose three cripples to accompany him - or else Palpatine was REALLY FUCKING GOOD!